「瀬戸内寂聴展」記念座談会 可能性切り開き現役でありたい（上）
(Commemorative Roundtable for the “Setouchi Jakuchō Exhibition” — Striving to Remain Active and Open New Possibilities (Part I)
平成20年10月号掲載(Published in the October 2008 issue)
去る9月5日から15日まで天満屋岡山店において、「作家生活50周年源氏物語千年紀記念瀬戸内寂聴展」が開催され好評を博しましたが、オープン前日の9月4日、山陽新聞社で越宗孝昌同社社長司会のもと、瀬戸内女史を中心に旧知の間柄である美術家の高橋秀氏、そして教主様による記念の座談会が行われました。
その要旨が9月11日付同紙に掲載されましたので、今号と次号にわたり掲載させていただきます。（編集部）
From September 5 to 15, the “Setouchi Jakuchō Exhibition: Commemorating the 50th Anniversary of Her Literary Career and the Millennium of The Tale of Genji” was held at Tenmaya Okayama Store and was well received. On the day before the opening, September 4, a commemorative roundtable was held at the Sanyō Shimbun Newspaper headquarters, chaired by President Koshimune Takamasa of the newspaper, with Ven. Setouchi Jakuchō at the center, joined by artist Prof. Takahashi Shū, a longtime acquaintance, and the Chief Patriarch.
A summary of this discussion was published in the September 11 issue of the newspaper, and we are pleased to present it here in this and the following issue. (Editorial Office)
（From Sanyō Shimbun Newspaper, September 11 issue)
「源氏物語」の現代語訳で知られ、86歳を迎えた今も精力的に執筆活動を続ける人気作家の瀬戸内寂聴さん。天満屋岡山店6階葦川会館で開催中の「作家生活50周年源氏物語千年紀記念瀬戸内寂聴展」（ＮＨＫサービスセンター、山陽新聞社主催）を機に来岡した瀬戸内さんと、古くからの友人の美術家高橋秀さん、黒住教教主の黒住宗晴さんに、「生きる」「愛」などをキワードにざっくばらんに語ってもらった。 （敬称略）
Known for her modern translation of The Tale of Genji, Ven. Setouchi Jakuchō, now 86 years old, continues her energetic writing career. Taking the occasion of the “Setouchi Jakuchō Exhibition: Commemorating the 50th Anniversary of Her Literary Career and the Millennium of The Tale of Genji,” held at the Ashikawa Hall on the 6th floor of Tenmaya Okayama Store (organized by NHK Service Center and Sanyō Shimbun), Ven. Setouchi visited Okayama. She joined her longtime friend, the artist Prof. Takahashi Shū, and Rev. Kurozumi Muneharu, Chief Patriarch of Kurozumikyō, for a candid roundtable discussion on themes such as “life” and “love.”
源氏物語と作家生活
The Tale of Genji and the Writer’s Life
越宗：今回の展覧会は寂聴さんの作家生活50周年と源氏物語千年紀を記念したものです。まずは寂聴さんにうかがいます。源氏物語の現代語訳は大変な歳月をかけて完成された大仕事です。源氏物語にひかれたきっかけはなんでしょう。
Mr. Koshimune: This exhibition commemorates Ven. Setouchi Jakuchō’s fifty years as a writer and the millennium of The Tale of Genji. First, I would like to ask Ven. Setouchi: your modern translation of The Tale of Genji was a monumental achievement, completed over many years. What first drew you to The Tale of Genji?
寂聴：徳島の女学校に入った13歳の時、図書館で何げなく手に触れたのが、与謝野晶子訳の源氏物語でした。おもしろくて夢中で終わりまで読みました。外国の小説に負けないと思いました。その後、谷崎潤一郎さん、円地文子さんが訳された。その3人の天才文豪の訳がありますから、私の出る幕はないと思っていました。
Ven. Setouchi: When I entered a girls’ school in Tokushima at the age of thirteen, I happened to pick up Yosano Akiko’s translation of The Tale of Genji in the library. It was fascinating, and I read it through to the end with great enthusiasm. I thought it could stand alongside foreign novels. Later, Tanizaki Jun’ichirō and Enchi Fumiko also produced translations. With such works by three literary geniuses, I felt there was no place for me.
ところが日本人の国語力が低下して、簡潔で読みやすい与謝野さんの訳はまだいいけれど、谷崎さんや円地さんのは本当に美しい文章なんですが、ついていけないという。そこで国民みんなに読んでもらえるよう、易しく訳すことにしました。70歳の時です。出版社に「出来上がるまで命が持ちますか」と言われましたよ。3年で完成させる予定でしたが、これまでの訳と同じにならないよう一行一行つきあわせ、結局6年半かかりました。
However, as Japanese people’s language ability declined, Yosano’s concise and readable version remained accessible, but Tanizaki’s and Enchi’s—though truly beautiful prose—were becoming difficult for readers to follow. So I decided to translate it in a simpler style, so that everyone in the nation could read it. I was seventy years old at the time. The publisher asked me, “Will your life last until it is finished?” I planned to complete it in three years, but since I compared each line carefully to avoid repeating earlier translations, it ultimately took six and a half years.
越宗：わが国の素晴らしい古典を現代の人々に手渡してくださった。読んでみますと、人間関係にしろ恋愛にしろ現代に通じるテーマですね。
Koshimune: You have handed down our country’s magnificent classic to people today. When we read it, whether in human relationships or in love, the themes clearly resonate with the modern age.
寂聴：源氏物語は世界に誇る文化遺産です。物語では光源氏というスーパーマンが次々恋をしますが、男女の関係は千年たっても変わらないんですね。この話は向かいの奥さん、これは私の内緒事じゃないかと思わせる。だから、面白いんでしょうね。
Ven. Setouchi: The Tale of Genji is a cultural treasure of which we can be proud before the world. In the story, Hikaru Genji, a kind of “superman,” falls in love again and again, but the relations between men and women have not changed even after a thousand years. One feels, “This is just like the neighbor’s wife,” or “Isn’t this my own secret?” That is why it remains so fascinating.
越宗：寂聴さんは今年86歳になられたが創作意欲は衰えるどころか、80歳で「釈迦（しゃか）」、昨年は世阿弥の生涯を描いた「秘花」を完成された。展覧会のテーマは「生きることは愛すること」ですが、寂聴さんにとって「生きることは書くこと」なのでしょうね。あらためて半世紀もの作家生活を振り返っていかがですか。
Mr. Koshimune: Ven. Setouchi, you turned 86 this year, yet your creative drive shows no sign of waning. At age 80 you completed Shaka: The Life of Buddha, and last year you finished Hika (Secret Flower), portraying the life of Zeami (c. 1363 – c. 1443, A Japanese playwright, actor, and theorist of Noh drama, widely regarded as the founder and greatest master of Noh). The theme of this exhibition is “To live is to love,” but for you, perhaps “To live is to write.” Looking back now on half a century of your life as a writer, how do you feel?
寂聴：文壇に出始めのころ、「花芯」という作品を発表してひどい目に遭いましてね。エロ作家と呼ばれ、五年間文芸誌に書くことができませんでした。悔しくて何くそと思いましたよ。その経験がなかったら、今ごろつまらない作家になっていたのではないでしょうか。人生にマイナスってないんですね。
Ven. Setouchi: When I first entered the literary world, I published a work called Kashin: The Flower’s Heart, and I suffered greatly for it. I was branded an “erotic writer” and was unable to publish in literary magazines for five years. I was frustrated and thought, “I’ll show them.” Without that experience, I might have become a dull writer. In life, there is no such thing as a minus.
それから、年を取ったら何もできないというのは間違い。私は70歳で源氏物語を訳し、80歳でオペラまで書きました。周りの人はやめろと言うんですよ。せっかくここまできたのに、したことのないことをして恥をかくことはないと。でも思い切ってやるとできる。才能の可能性は自分では分からない。死ぬまであきらめたらいけない。失敗したら「年寄りだからごめんね」って言えばいいんですよ。
And the idea that growing old means you can do nothing is simply wrong. At seventy I translated The Tale of Genji, and at eighty I even wrote an opera. People around me told me to stop. They said, “You’ve come this far, don’t risk disgrace by doing something you’ve never done before.” But if you take the plunge, you find you can do it. You never know the possibilities of your own talent. You must not give up until you die. If you fail, you can just say, “Forgive me, I’m old.”
生きること
What Is To Live?
越宗：寂聴さんは何歳になっても自分の可能性を切り開いていくのが大事と言われました。それはつまり、よく生きよく死ぬということでしょうか。
Mr. Koshimune: Ven. Setouchi, you have said that it is important to keep opening up your own possibilities no matter how old you are. In other words, does that mean to live well and to die well?
寂聴：そうですね。例えば今の親は子どもにいい大学へ行けと言いますが、やめた方がいいですね。子どもが好きなことをさせればいいのです。必ず成功すると思いますよ。
Ven. Setouchi: Yes, that’s right. For example, today’s parents often tell their children to enter a good university, but I think they should stop doing that. It is better to let children do what they love. I believe they will surely succeed that way.
黒住：お母さまの育て方はどのようだったんでしょうか。
Rev. Kurozumi: How did your mother raise you?
寂聴：小学2年のとき、つづり方の授業で先生に「何から取ったの」と盗作を疑われ、泣いて家に帰ったことがありました。母はエプロンをしたまま私の手をつかんで学校へ行き「うちの子は生まれつきつづり方がうまいんです。人のものを盗んだりいたしません」と先生に怒ったんです。
Ven. Setouchi: When I was in the second grade of elementary school, during a composition class, the teacher suspected me of plagiarism and asked, “Where did you copy this from?” I cried and went home. My mother, still wearing her apron, took me by the hand and went straight to the school. She became angry with the teacher, saying, “My child was born with a gift for writing. She would never steal someone else’s work.”
いざとなったら母は守ってくれるんだと思いましたね。母はろくに学校も行っていない人でしたが、私が女子大へ行きたいと言うと、率先して励ましてくれた。好きなことをさせてくれました。
At that moment I realized that, when it truly mattered, my mother would protect me. She herself had hardly attended school, but when I said I wanted to go to a women’s university, she was the first to encourage me. She let me pursue what I loved.
高橋：でも今のお母さんはそれができない。小中学生のグループが大型絵画に挑戦するイベント「沙美アートフェスト」（秀ａｒｔｓｔｕｄｉｏ主催）には、毎年県内から300人も参加があり、お母さん方も大勢集まります。見ていると、子どもをだめにしているのはお母さんだと思いますよ。子どもを自分の所有物のように思っていて、できるだけ付加価値を上げようとしている。
Prof. Takahashi: But mothers today cannot do that. At the “Sami Art Fest,” an event where groups of elementary and junior high school students take on large-scale paintings (organized by Shū Art Studio), about 300 children from within the prefecture participate every year, and many mothers also gather. Watching them, I feel that it is the mothers who are ruining the children. They treat their children as if they were their own possessions, trying to add as much extra value to them as possible.
寂聴：子どもが悪いのは大人が悪いから。仏教も神道も、目に見えないものを信じて大切にしていますね。そして人の心も目に見えない。世の中を本当に動かしているのは、目に見えないものですよ。それなのに、今の人はお金や家など目に見えるものしか信じない。
Ven. Setouchi: When children go astray, it is because adults are at fault. Both Buddhism and Shintō teach us to believe in and cherish what cannot be seen. And the human heart, too, is invisible. What truly moves the world are things unseen. Yet people today believe only in what can be seen—money, houses, and the like.
黒住：「忘己利他（もうこりた）」と言われますね。
Rev. Kurozumi: The phrase mōkōrita 忘己利他—“forget the self, benefit others”—is often spoken, isn’t it?
寂聴：自分のことを考えないで、他人のことを祈ってあげるという天台宗の教えの根本です。あらゆる宗教の行き着くところですよね。
Ven. Setouchi: Yes. It means not thinking of oneself, but praying for others. It is the very foundation of teaching of the Tendai School of Buddhism, and indeed the destination of all religions.
黒住：他人に喜んでもらう喜びが、自分を輝かせるのではないでしょうか。その原点が子に対する母の無償の愛だと思うのですが。昔から親は子に「人に迷惑を掛けないように」と教えますが、「人に役立つ人になりなさい」とも言うべき。人は人に尽くして人と成るということです。親自身が実践してもらいたいですね。
Rev. Kurozumi: The joy of bringing happiness to others is what makes one shine. Its origin lies in a mother’s unconditional love for her child. From long ago, parents have taught their children, “Do not cause trouble for others,” but they should also say, “Become someone who is of use to others.” A biological human becomes truly a social human by serving other humans. Parents themselves must practice this.
越宗：誰かの役に立つことが幸せで、この世に生まれた理由です。しかし個人主義や利己主義がまん延し、命がいかにかけがえのないものか、認識も薄れてきている気がします。
Mr. Koshimune: To be of service to someone is happiness, and it is the reason we are born into this world. Yet individualism and selfishness are spreading, and I feel that awareness of how irreplaceable life is has grown thin.
寂聴：戦後の教育が間違っているんですよ。核家族化が進んで年寄りの知恵が孫に伝わらなくなっている。先祖がいるから自分があるのに、自分だけで生まれてきたように思っているから、おかしくなるんです。
Ven. Setouchi: Postwar education has gone astray. With the spread of the nuclear family, the wisdom of the elderly is no longer passed down to grandchildren. We exist because our ancestors existed, yet people act as if they were born entirely on their own, and that leads to distortion.
そして子どもたちが生まれた国に誇りを持っていないでしょう。総理大臣がさっさと辞めるようだと、国の誇りは失われます。日本は素晴らしいという意識を取り返さなければいけない。私は源氏、源氏と騒いでいますが、世界に先駆けてこんな素晴らしい物語を書いた女性が日本にいたと、若い人たちに誇りを持ってほしい。そのために私は身を粉にして走り回っているんです。
（以下次号）
And children today do not take pride in the country where they were born. When prime ministers resign so quickly, national pride is lost. We must regain the awareness that Japan is truly a wonderful nation. I keep speaking of Genji, Genji, but I want young people to feel pride that Japan was the first in the world to produce such a magnificent tale, written by a woman. That is why I devote myself tirelessly, running everywhere for this cause.
(To be continued in the next issue)
せとうち・じゃくちょう
1922年徳島市生まれ。本名・晴美。東京女子大卒。「花に問え」など著書多数。現代語訳した「源氏物語」はベストセラーになった。女流文学賞、谷崎潤一郎賞、文化勲章など受賞・章。
73年出家、京都・嵯峨野に「寂庵」を結ぶ。
Ven. Setouchi Jakuchō
Born in Tokushima City in 1922. Birth name: Harumi. Graduate of Tokyo Women’s University. Author of numerous works including Ask the Flowers. Her modern translation of The Tale of Genji became a bestseller. Recipient of the Women’s Literature Prize, the Tanizaki Jun’ichirō Prize, and the Order of Culture. In 1973 she entered the Buddhist priesthood and established Jakuan in Sagano, Kyoto.
たかはし・しゅう
1930年福山市生まれ。武蔵野美術学校中退。61年安井賞を受賞し63年渡伊。エロチシズム薫る独自の抽象表現が評価され、88年日本芸術大賞、94年紫綬褒章、2005年山陽新聞賞を受賞・章。04年から倉敷市在住。倉敷芸術科学大客員教授。
Prof. Takahashi Shū
Born in Fukuyama City in 1930. Withdrew from Musashino Art School. Won the Yasui Prize in 1961 and went to Italy in 1963. His unique abstract expression, imbued with eroticism, earned high acclaim. Recipient of the Japan Art Grand Prize in 1988, the Medal with Purple Ribbon in 1994, and the Sanyō Shimbun Prize in 2005. Residing in Kurashiki City since 2004. Visiting Professor at Kurashiki University of Science and the Arts.
くろずみ・むねはる
1937年岡山市生まれ。京都大文学部卒。黒住教青年連盟長を務めていた65年、中四国を対象にした「重症心身障害児施設建設運動」は「旭川児童院」の設立につながった。67年山陽新聞賞受賞。73年から第６代黒住教教主。
Rev. Kurozumi Muneharu
Born in Okayama City in 1937. Graduate of Kyoto University, Faculty of Letters. As head of the Kurozumikyō Youth League in 1965, he led a campaign to establish facilities for children with severe physical and intellectual disabilities, which resulted in the founding of the Asahigawa Children’s Home. Recipient of the Sanyō Shimbun Prize in 1967. Serving as the sixth Chief Patriarch of Kurozumikyō since 1973.
